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Need HELP in guitar design!!!!!
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3214		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi
You have all been great. My first guitar is beautiful, but the sound is not
what I am looking for. I made a 14 fret 000 Cedar/cocobolo guitar.   
Depth 4.5
It is too boomy that doesn't strum well. Sounds better with fingerstyle.
I don't want a lot of trial and error and months between results. I am
looking to build a small bodied guitar that has very crisp trebles but that
still has a good base and sustain. Good for fingerstyle and light to med
strumming
WHERE DO I GO FROM HERE. Should I use spruce instead of cedar. Can I
use cocobolo again or would other tonewood be better. Is the depth of
4.5 the main problem. Is it too deep?
Sorry for all of the questions, but I dont want to keep building without
some direction.

Thanks

Andy
Author:  tippie53 [ Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:42 pm ]
Post subject: 
    What bracing did you use? Cedar is a ligher and softer wood and will tend to be bassier.
    If you are looking for a nice balanced guitar maybe a OM with a 1 3/4 nut and 2 1/4 12th fret and saddle.
Then use standard 5/16 X bracing with medium strings. You can allways adjust the voice by working with the bracing later.
   Bone nut and saddle will help for clarity and response. Adirondack spruce top with adi braces will really give it a voice. Engleman will be a good 2nd choice for fingerpicknig but I find that a so so on struming and flat picking.
    Alpine and Carpathian are also good. Sitka is fine but is too standard for me. I like my guitars to have more of that old time sound. I like a good blance between the treble and bass and Adi sure can do that.
   I like to do my tops to about .100 in adi and .110 in the others. I am sure many more builders will have something to ad. It took me about 12 guitars till I starting making them sound the way I wanted
john hall
Author:  Andy Zimmerman [ Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
This guitar has a 1 3/4 nut   5/16th bracing. Is the boominess due to too
small of bracing??? Is it the depth. I just don't want to spend months
making a guitar and have the same problems.

Thanks

Andy
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
"I don't want a lot of trial and error and months between results"

Welcome to the club! But thats part of what its all about. Trial and error will allow you to develop your own voice, months between results is the nature of the beast! Were not building plastic model airplanes here


Andy -
I'm afraid that there is not one answer or group of answers to your question. There are so many variables that come into play when constructing a guitar. The best advise I could give, (other than continuing to build) Is to follow a tried and trued plan, maybe an OM plan, I have built two folling the Scott Antes Om plans to a TEE and they both turned out to be very nice, one was a cedar topped, the other Sitka, and in general, they were what I expected, the cedar top was warm and woody, not to bassy and not to much sparkle, the Sitka was louder, crisper and able to handle a heavy right hand much better. However it didn't have the depth of warmth as the cedar top did.

From there I have developed my own "feel" for what im doing and my guitars are sound more and more like there from the same family, siblings if you will. But all this did not happen on guitar #2. Its just not going to.

Keep your nose to the grinding stone! And above all, you MUST enjoy the process and much or more than the end result.

LanceK



Author:  Don Williams [ Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
When I think about a guitar for hard strumming, I don't necessarily think about using cedar. If you wanted a real strumming guitar, why didn 't you build a dreadnaught? That's the classic strummer.
I agree with John Hall's assessment of using an adirondack top/braces if you want a smaller guitar. It typically has a lot of headroom.
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Although it's hard to 'blame' any one thing, the tone you seem to be aiming for is one you're more likely to get out of spruce, probably either Euro or Adirondack, than out of Cedar. I haven't built with Cedar yet, but it's next on my list, and I selected it because the friend I'm playing for is very much a fingerpicker and occasional light strummer, generally without a flatpick. So it should, IMO, work very well for that.

For a shimmering trebles kind of thing, good bass, sustain, etc. my informed guess would be a Rosewood/Italian OM or similar, although mahogany will give you a 'woodier' tone.
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:08 am ]
Post subject: 
I think it would be a hatful of incredible luck if you got the sound you want with your first guitar. I've got a sound in my head (several actually for different types of music) and at about 20 guitars in, I'm creeping closer to the sound. OK, so that doesn't help you but should give a sense of perspective on it.

4.5" is a bit deeper than I like for an OM, mine run a 4.0" at the tail. that could acount for some of the boominess, but may be completely innocent! 5/16 bracing is fairly standard, mine are 7.5mm which is about 5/16" and are 15mm (9/16"), anything in that ballpark should be OK.

Lance is right for the first few guitars stick quite rigidly to a well known plan, before going all experimental.

The obvious change would be to use a spruce top of your choice, avoiding Englemann, mine choice would be European, Red Spuce as second choice. Obviously I'd also try Mahogany B&S, but if you like Coco stick to it, in fact probably stick to it as changing too many things at once can only confuse as you then have no idea what made what difference.

You need to understand the effect each small detail can have in fine tuning the sound. If possible change just one thing at a tme and note the difference in sound.

THis search for perfection is what makes it all fun. Once you have built that perfect guitar, then what?

Colin
Author:  tippie53 [ Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cedar and redwood are very soft and pliable . What makes a good top in my experience is what is called strength to weight ratio, Ceder has a low weight and low strength.
Spruce is low weight and high strength. In fact it is one of the strongest woods per weight.
The different spruces can vary much so look for
Sitka Available
Alpine carpathian or engleman
Adi is the best but also the most expensive. Good sitka is better than bad adi .

Braces are another concern , 5/16 is a normal thickness and 1/4 is also used. I think your choice of woods was more by your inexperience. A few more guitars and you will have this licked.

Engleman is good for fingerpicking. I don't care too much for flat picking as the headroom is less.

Sitka is ok as it is common and available. Tight grain is best 20 grain per inch or more is my choice.
   The shape of the brace is also imporatant as you have standard and scalloped.

Alpine and carpathian are also great choices in my book. If you can get adi bracing stock. It has more strength and will really help.

Good luck
john hall
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:42 am ]
Post subject: 
I was going over my notes last night, for the last two years and ran across some building and set-up notes that may be of interest.

Anyway late last year I built a Mahogany/Sitka OM experiment that I ended up donating to a local Jr High music department.

The experiment was an attempt to build a super light box assembly. I thinned the top to .085" bass side,.098" treble, back .08 and sides to .07 All top braces were thinned by 10% from my standard and scalloped a good bit deeper than normal, and bach braces remained standard. The box was a DUD as a finger style guitar. Way too much bass and some what dead on the treble side, with not much projection. However when played as a rhythm strummer, the treble came alive quit nicely. almost a 12 string like sound, i.e. a bright percussion sound like symbols It was a nice suprise.

As we know floppy tops tend to be bassy in tone and stiff tops tend to be bright in tone So one approach for you could be to experiment with a thinner top.

Just something to think on.
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